Wikipedia:Kōrero/2004

Wikipedia:Kōrero, Pūranga 2004

Macrons

What will the Maori Wikipedia's policy on spelling Maori words be? Particularly, how will we represent the long vowel sounds? The title of this page currently uses "ö" for the long "o", which is fairly common on the internet. The Maori Language Commission, by contrast, prefers a macron, giving "ō". That's the preferred method in print, it seems. Another possibility (more common in educational circles) is simply to write the vowel twice.

that leads to complications with compound words Robin Patterson 02:47, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

As such, this page could be Körero, Kōrero, or Koorero. I've used the macron, myself, but the umlaut option seems to being used too. We should probably establish which convention we'll be following now, when there are only a few articles - it'll be easier than going back and changing everything later.

Any thoughts? -- Vardion 07:03, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Parliament has occasionally used a double vowel but is now moving towards macrons, though not with 100% consistency. :Robin Patterson 22:50, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The reason why the diaeresis (eg: ö) is more used than the macron (eg: ō) on computers is due to historic reasons: several years ago computers didn't support unicode, and the 8bits encoding commonly used in English operating systems (be it iso-8859-1 or windows-1252) doesn't have any macron letter; the use of the diaeresis was simply the less bad choice possible.

However, if the correct usage (in print, when handwriting; what is defined by the language authorities) is to use the a macron, then macrons should be used here (things changed a lot, and while it wasn't possible to use a macron some years ago for most people, nowadays the majority of operating systems fully support unicode (at least for the letters involved here), wikipedia uses unicode encoding internally too, so it isn't a problem either, I think everybody should be able to see them on screen without problem; if the problem is typing, then the list of involved letters could be printed on the samll text displayed near the edit box of a page, so people can just copy and paste them if they haven't figured out how to type them directly on keyboard (Spanish wikipedia for example does that) Srtxg 14 Mar 2004

Macrons are now the policy

MACRONS it is. Robin, 27 April.
Anyone is welcome to change diaeresis/umlauts to macrons, but some Maori websites still use and/or display diaeresis/umlauts (or nothing --see Ngai Tahu's main page, for example) and, despite the optimism noted above, not all displays render macrons properly (eg on mine at home, I can see them in the edit box but in the articles and sidebars every macronned character is just a rectangle), so I see no hurry to change. Use of macrons in all new material is pretty easy now that I have followed up on the Srtxg suggestion. Robin Patterson 23:03, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Page names with macrons

To minimise irritation caused by edits that contain macronless links intended to target pages with names that have macrons, and vice versa, it is desirable to create the page name with NO MACRONS first, then MOVE it to the fully-macronned version. That leaves the plain version as an automatic Redirect (and a handy target for interwiki links), while the real article will be named in the officially-approved manner. We had a few of these moves in previous months. (If one creates the macronned page first, it's possible but much more fiddly to create a plain one as a Redirect.)

The above, now that I have fully worked it out and explained the reasons, will explain some of my recent flurry of creations and moves! (I'll add a bit of this to the Style page.) Robin Patterson 06:09, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Purpose of this page

I thought that Körero would be like current events. I used the same word to mean "discuss this page". Please correct me if I have incorrect usage. Perl 13:26, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've now (as reported recently) added "this page" in Maori to the "Discuss this page" link, so no confusion; "Körero" seems fine for the name of this page unless we want to keep with the "tavern" theme! Robin Patterson 02:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Editing

To edit the current events link on the sidebar, edit MediaWiki:Currentevents; and to edit the translation of "discuss this page", edit MediaWiki:Talkpage. (For other sidebar items there are MediaWiki:Movethispage , MediaWiki:Randompage, MediaWiki:Whatlinkshere and MediaWiki:Editthispage). Please look over those pages and make sure I have translated them correctly. I have made you [Vardion] an administrator on this wikipedia so that you may edit the protected messages. Best wishes, Perl 13:26, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Pakeha promotion of this site

Tēnā koutou.

My Māori consists of a few phrases (which I expect to increase every day I watch Whakaata Māori (Māori Television) and recognition of not much more than 100 words (including most of those used in the Resource Management Act 1991).

I'm happy to browse here and tinker editorially/structurally where it might help.

Robin Patterson 06:46, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Now distinctly more proficient after 4 months of Maori Television and reading grammar books on the train! Robin Patterson 23:03, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

~~Do we have a Māori equivalent of: {{msg:stub}} that says something meaningful?~~

Robin Patterson 06:46, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

- We do now; I worked THAT one out all by myself Robin Patterson 12:33, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

and, of course, you no longer need the "msg:" part; so just "stub" inside those curly brackets will produce the Māori and English message with lines above and below. Robin Patterson 20:13, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Noticing the dearth of contributors, I wonder whether any registered contributors would see anything wrong with the idea of contacting iwi and other groups through their websites, telling them about the Māori Wikipedia, and encouraging them to suggest to their members and associates that contributing would be a good way of promoting te reo Māori. :Robin Patterson 00:36, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think that would be a great idea. I was vaguely considering something along those lines, but I wouldn't have any idea how to do it. Even if we just get a brief mention in a newsletter or something, it may attract a few more contributors. (My own understanding of Māori is highly limited, although I hope to improve it over time). Anyway, welcome aboard. -- Vardion 01:35, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Vardion. I'll give some more thought to approaching iwi.

Meantime, in case some readers are interested, here's what I wrote the other day to Māori Television:

Tena koutou.

I'm one of your pakeha fans since enjoying 3 hours on your opening day and an average of an hour a day since.

I've profiled a couple of your pages in suitable categories on the Web directory www.zeal.com , where I have some influence. One of the recent additions is probably visible here: http://www.zeal.com/category/preview.jhtml?cid=10144994

There is also mention on www.wikipedia.com - eg here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_television_channels - but little or none on the Maori Wikipedia: maybe some of your people could help promote te reo by contributing there: http://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_reo_maori

If your web experts decide to change any URLs, a note to me would ensure that the Zeal and Wikipedia references are updated rather than being lost or deleted.

E noho ra.

Robin Patterson

Robin Patterson 23:00, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've now told the Maori Language Commission about us, got an entry on the Community Panui, and asked Pipers to add the WP to their list of New Zealand language and education websites. Robin Patterson 20:13, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Machinery and software issues

~~Please, someone, try to organise the appropriate bit of software so that we no longer get told that all our pages have 0 views:~~

~~http://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Statistics~~

~~Robin Patterson 01:35, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)~~

Page views are no longer recorded for performance reasons. A sysop will need to edit MediaWiki:Sitestatstext to remove the reference to page views. You may want to translate the English version which no longer mentions this. Angela 19:39, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Angela - Robin (I fixed it just after Anzac Day)

Checklist that may help us get this wiki working even better:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_wikipedia

This should keep us on the right lines when naming new pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions

I've asked someone how we get a line of tohutō (macronned characters) below the edit box in the same way as other languages do (as our Belgian friend Srtxg suggested above); no reply in last 24 hours; it must be possible, even if it needs a developer to be dragged in for a few minutes. - Robin Patterson 10:02, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To add macronned characters below the edit box, edit MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning. See de:MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning for an example. Angela 20:42, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Angela, you are worth your weight in gold. I've attended to that, thank you. I added the "stub" message code to the box of characters, to save even more time - someone may now tell me what Māori wording would be best in the actual stub message! Robin Patterson 02:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

IMAGES - how do we "copy" images from other Wikipedias into this one? (I really have tried to find out, by studying at least a dozen pages about images!) Robin Patterson 02:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A frequently asked question (it should be added to a FAQ somewhere really). It is not currently possible to move images between Wikipedias. You have to download the image to your own computer (often right clicking on it will give you this option), and then re-upload that to the Wikipedia you want the image to be copied to. It's best to copy images that have some sort of source mentioned, or that state that are released under the GFDL, or are public domain. Add interlanguage links between the two so that if one is found to be a copyright violation, the other one can be deleted as well. There are plans for the future for all images to be on one site to save having to upload them separately to each Wikipedia. Angela 02:14, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, Angela. I've copied that to a reasonably suitable place here for wider dissemination. - Robin

Progress

Kia ora koutou! Progress and thoughts following Anzac Day 2004 (and please feel free to add indented comments (ie starting with a colon) to any of these paragraphs!):

You'll have noticed that I haven't lost interest in this project. Annoyed with myself for not finishing that Administrators list - I seem to have been distracted then deleted that window after carelessly leaving it with quite a lot more composed and previewed. ~~If I don't finish it soon, maybe someone else will - it needs only three more sysops to be named and should have Brion listed among the "others".~~

Planning to create numerous "lists" (rārangi) pages, including a list of lists (!) and things like colours - (rārangi kano) - and months - (rārangi marama) (I hope those are right - see below) so as to make the contribution of one or two words at a time easy for those of us who speak hardly any Māori and can read only a little more. Some of them will be tables, with Māori words listed in alpha order and English equivalents opposite.

I think we need a separate page for agreed styles (preferably with a proper Māori name - any offers?). Maybe it could start with a link to the English style page and say we follow that except for the "following" specific points, either of difference or where the English one has no equivalent (eg macrons).

We now have one - see "Tikanga". 27/28 April.

Another small machinery matter is how we deal with having variants of words, eg Maori and Māori and maori. Obviously [?] our article would be under the preferred heading, with redirects from the other[s] so that the less skilled writers can link their variant even if they don't pick the preferred one - but those of you with experience in other Wikipedias may be able to steer me in a better direction there! The "problem" would arise whenever we got an expert opinion saying one of our page titles wasn't good Māori; but I guess moving or renaming is the way to do that; I hope we get some expert speakers soon, so as not to have to change too much.

It would be neat if anyone reading this page could add a "Hello" or "Kia ora" line at the bottom just to give us some idea whether anyone's reading it all!

That's all I can think of for now. If replying to any of these paras, please feel free to move them up or down to old or new headings as appropriate, for easier following of the sense and thread. Kind regards - Robin Patterson 10:02, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Milestone - more than 50 articles, so when you click on Long pages you no longer see the shortest page! (Now can someone else add a few dozen names of NZ Governors to Rārangi Kāwana?) - Robin Patterson 22:30, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Relevant articles in the English Wikipedia

Just thought I should include a link to User:A Pakeha's contribution Wikipedia:Wikipedia English Language articles about Maori subjects so's we don't forget what a valuable resource it is. - Robin, 27 April.

Usage of English

Why is it we use English so much here? Not in Korero, where it is understandable (for the moment), but in individual pages? If somebody speaks Maori, they'll be able to read and understand a request for them to help with mi:, otherwise they're probably at the wrong place and can click on "English" in the list of "other languages". No MediaWiki messages should have any English, nor should the main page. The only places where English should be permitted is userpages, talkpages, and (possibly) text explaining external links. en:List of Animals, if it exists (I'm not sure it does), doesn't give Maori translations. The fact that the Maori equivalent gives English translations for each word implies to me that the author of the page is of the POV that the English names for these animals are somehow relevant, which they aren't.

In addition, what's all this about being PURPOSEFULLY Aotearoa-centric? (I'm referring to the stuff about "primarily about..." in articles explaining Wikipedia) It's understandable to have a concentration of articles about New Zealand and especially about Maori-related topics (that's the case with most Wikipedias), but we should strive to be international and nothing-centric (except perhaps Earth-centric). en: obviously has a concentration of articles about American and Commonwealth-related topics, as does fr: with articles about France and Francophonie in general, but both strive to lower that concentration by increasing their repertoire of articles about other cultures and nations. To condone and even support such a concentration is against the spirit of Wikipedia. As is the case with all Wikipedias, it is the hope of all Wikipedians that all the articles in any given Wikipedia that only occur in that Wikipedia be translated so they can be included in all other Wikipedias. If that were to happen for all such articles right now, most Wikipedias would be fairly nothing-centric, though of course there would be slight bias towards first English, then German, French, Japanese.

--24.251.242.236 04:11, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Kia ora, e manuhiri. I look forward to seeing your first 70 articles (preferably in fluent or even passable Maori, so as to be better than my first 70), and I'm happy to see you cover the whole world. I recommend that you start by attacking most of the red links on Hau Kāinga. Then you and your friends can work on your idea (which I agree with) that "it is the hope of all Wikipedians that all the articles in any given Wikipedia that only occur in that Wikipedia be translated so they can be included in all other Wikipedias" - translating 300,000 articles from "en" into "mi". Kia kaha, e hoa! Robin Patterson 06:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your condescention is noted and ignored. If you agree with that "idea", which is actually central to Wikipedia policy and goals, then why does Wikipedia:Community Portal say that mi: is intended to have a concentration of local topics?

It says that because I'm trying to encourage Maori speakers to realise that they are most welcome to write about something familiar. I'll remove it when it's done that. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The point of Wikipedia is generally accepted to be quality rather than quantity, though in some cases people get carried away (take for example all the US placenames with only rudimentary census information which was added by bot). Thus, rather than working towards 70 articles which you yourself claim to be in poor Maori (and stubs, at that),

Some of them are in good Maori, and some are not stubs Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

perhaps you could find a Maori friend and have them help you translate or write one whole quality article from scratch?

I don't have Maori friends who are interested yet; I have approached Maori Television and the Maori Language Commission and a community newsletter and a couple of tribal websites, with more of that planned; one day it may inspire someone to become active. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This is generally how successful new Wikipedias start, and if people don't do it that way, when fluent speakers do come they're often discouraged by the mess that's already been created by non-fluent speakers.

Tell me where it's a mess and I'll try to fix it or call in the experts. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you want to practice Maori, maybe you can do that on Korero, but generally Wikipedia policy frowns on editing just to practice your language skills rather than to actually contribute coherent content (though en:, de:, and fr: are now generally accepting of crappy English/German/French because of the wealth of native speakers who will fix it on sight).

Show me some content that is not coherent, and as above I'll attend to it. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Non-fluents have started Wikipedias and made Main Pages, but to get very far beyond that with any degree of success has thus far required a native speaker. (for example a non-fluent started sc:, and recruited the first native speaker for fo:; obviously they tried their best for the mainpage at sc: and did extremely minimal interface translation; Merovingian did the same for mg: and I believe quite a few other Wikipedias have been started that way)

In addition, you didn't respond to many of my questions. Also, since you're the sysop, why don't you fix all the interface messages which use diereses (or is it dieresises?) instead of macrons?

I don't have much spare time; some of your questions were interesting but I didn't have a good answer; I have at present better things to do than "fix" any diaeresis[?!} - they work AND are still used on many full Maori websites Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I also noticed that at the category page you mention that categories aren't nessecarily needed. This was already discussed before the recent implementation of categories, and most agreed that while they were not absolutely nessecary, they were definitely a useful feature. If you meant that they aren't the first priority in getting mi: up and running, then I definitely agree with you there.

Another of our many points of agreement! Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, I noticed that you advertise for your own webpage in one of the system messages (the one about categories). It's generally accepted as policy that while one may add relevant links to normal articles and talk pages, and come very close to advertising (ie only semi-relevant links to sites of ones own) on talk pages, and resort to blatant commercialism on one's own userpage, linking in such a way in the Wikipedia: or MediaWiki: namespace is generally frowned upon.

I don't have any commercial webpages; please specify the one that seems to upset you. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you sincerely believe that this should be a bilingual Wikipedia until more native speakers come, that's fine with me, but I continue to disagree. As I said before, using English and other non-Maori languages in talkpages and for things you don't know how to translate yourself is fine, but when you resort to having bilingual system messages and a partially or completely bilingual mainpage (in addition to, say, your list of animals), that generally discourages native speakers from editing because it seems less like an effort to build a true Maori Wikipedia at first glance.

Over 99% of Maori speakers understand English perfectly well, often better than they understand Maori. The bilingual instructions will help them all to navigate and work out how to contribute. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As I said before, people who wish to edit here but have limited Maori can visit Community Portal or Korero, and if they are simply interested in the Wikipedia project itself, they can click the link on te Hau Kāinga to the Wikipedia in their language of choice (including Te Reo Tiamana, Te Reo Wiwi, *and* Te Reo Ingarihi).

You may not appreciate my criticisms, and normally I would not expect you to take this sort of criticism, but you are currently the sole sysop on mi: (well, the sole sysop that knows anything better than "kia ora") and as such it's YOUR job to fix problems and deal with people's complaints until you can recruit more sysops.

It is a bit of a burden. I didn't ask to be a sysop. The good folk who started this off (including those whose Maori is almost certainly better than mine) have virtually left it alone. But, as indicated in a couple of replies above, I'm happy to address perceived "problems". I think I have responded as positively as possible to every newcomer who has contributed anything. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Re: "it's YOUR job to..." - it's no one's "job" to do anything on a volunteer project. I suggest you stop criticising the work of other people if you have nothing constructive to contribute yourself. Also, if you want to have a conversation with Robin, I think his talk page would be a better place to do that rather than the Körero. Angela

As to me editing articles in Maori: I do not wish to mess up mi: with my poor Maori. I do have a friend who may be willing to edit, though I think he'd be a lot more likely if mi: wasn't transparently bilingual.

I have been thinking of removing more of the English from Hau Kāinga now that I've created the Community Portal for people who have little or no Maori. Maybe I'll do that in a week or two if nobody comes and disagrees. Thanks. Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

PLEASE ASK YOUR FRIEND to have a go!!! He or she may like to start with a look at this Wikipedia:Wikipedia English Language articles about Maori subjects Robin Patterson 20:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

- I did. He said that it looked like it was only partially in Maori, and that he'd think about contributing later when it looked "better". I asked him what he meant by better, and he said he meant when it looked more "Maori". My friend *is* familiar with Wikipedia (though I don't think he's done more than a small bit of editing on en:); what you said about Maori bilingualism is true (in fact, I was under the impression that well over 99% of Maori speakers were bilingual), however the enthusiasm of a new user who's thinking of contributing is probably much dampened by the over-abundance of English on even the Main Page, but many system messages as well.
- Also, while diereses do work, it's been decided *on this page* that we are to use macrons instead. If for some reason I'm wrong about that, you could at least change the system messages that currently use macrons so that they use diereses instead so that it's at least consistent.
- As to the folks who started this Wikipedia - I'm not sure if you're aware, but the start of mi: is shrouded in scandal, many assert that Perl only started it because he wanted to be a sysop at as many projects as possible. The only Maori he knew he got from an online dictionary, which is where the original interface translations came from. I personally would've started it myself had it not already been started (though I would've used macrons from the beginning, and I'd not've done so much of the user interface without the opinion of at least somebody who has studied a little Maori instead of using a dictionary alone; I also wouldn'tve requested sysophood like he did), as the other couple of Wikipedias I've started testify to.
- As to advertising, I have noted at least one instance of a link to your "zonk" site in the Wikipedia: or MediaWiki: namespace. It's fine in talk pages, and even on pages on the article namespace where it's a relevant link, but for an article in the Wikipedia: namespace it's generally unacceptable. Whether or not it's commercial is not relevant; it is obviously a website that you are affiliated with.

Moved the offending material to MediaWiki talk:Category (and explained its value) - incidentally, I'm more "affiliated" with Wikipedia than with Zeal in terms of time spent in the last 6 months. Robin Patterson 23:03, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And thanks for replying so soon. Please ask your friend to have another go, translating anything he or she wants to on article pages and Hau Kāinga, so as to reduce the proportion of English. Robin Patterson 23:03, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, nearly 4 weeks later, the anonymous contributor hasn't responded to my request that he or she tell me what else specifically needs fixing. I did "fix" some of the links that used diaereses instead of macrons, so now there's a bit more that I can't read on my home computer - and other users may have the same problem. Apart from that, I've just gone on occasionally adding a few articles per week, almost exclusively in Māori, and removing some of the English here and there. Noted with pleasure that many of our pages come up on general web searches for specific page names. By way of personal interest, I'm creating a page listing articles that have received significant input from people who know more Māori than I do. I hope most of those contributors come back and continue the improvements. If I've omitted a contribution one of them thinks should be listed, he or she can add it. Robin Patterson 03:57, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Haere mai

kia ora my names ash - 19:22, 18 Oct 2004 210.54.53.13